Our latest guest on Ten2Two’s Talking SME podcast is Peter Hopwood, Global Public Speaking & TEDx Coach at Hopwood Speaker Coaching. In this episode we discuss some top tips for being impactful when presenting virtually. We also cover how to transfer existing presentation skills to the screen, and the importance of emotion when storytelling.
A bit about Peter
Peter delivers dynamic public speaking, pitching and presentation skills, through individual and team coaching – worldwide. As an international speaker coach he guides personal clients and corporate groups helping to construct strong storylines, deliver beautiful pitches and speeches while overcoming the anxiety of public speaking. From Dubai to Brussels, Shanghai to Amsterdam, equally as a dynamic and engaging in-demand British corporate events MC, Peter shapes digital events, conferences, summits, demo days and award ceremonies across Europe, Asia and The Middle East.
‘Tips for Presenting Virtually’ is just one in our series of podcasts where we talk about a wide range of topics. We talk with business experts, and also offer broad insights to help SMEs become more successful.
Jane O’Gorman (00:03):
Hello, and welcome to talking SME our quickfire chat with business leaders. I’m Jane O’Gorman and I’m very pleased today to welcome Peter Hopwood, global presentation skills coach and TEDx coach. Hi Peter.
Peter Hopwood (00:18):
Hi Jane. How are you?
Jane O’Gorman (00:20):
I’m good. Thank you. How are you today?
Peter Hopwood (00:22):
Really good. Really good, end of summer but it’s good. Feels good. The day’s going well where I am, where are you right now? Remind me.
Jane O’Gorman (00:31):
We’re in Herts. We are in Hertfordshire. It has been nice. But its a bit of a dull day today.
Peter Hopwood (00:36):
Right. I’m actually from Watford, don’t live there anymore. I’m in split in Southern Croatia right now, but it reminds me of the weather in Watford. Not here, what you said.
Jane O’Gorman (00:49):
Well I’m really pleased to be able to bring some of that to you today Peter, but I’ve got a little bit of jealousy going on here, wishing that we had some of that sun that you’ve got at the moment.
Peter Hopwood (00:59):
Well, hopefully I can bring, well I can’t bring the sun to you, but hopefully through this short conversation with you today, we can light up the lives of some of the people that are listening to the podcast. Let’s see.
Jane O’Gorman (01:12):
It’s Friday too. What’s not to love.
Peter Hopwood (01:16):
It’s Friday, Crunchie day. Isn’t it Crunchie on a Friday? Yeah.
Jane O’Gorman (01:20):
Peter, as an experienced global speaker, you have a wealth of experience in creating engagement and helping people define, craft and tell their stories. And there’s no doubt that we’ve seen a significant shift since lockdown one around how we are currently communicating as business leaders. And I guess for many, we have had to adapt to connecting only on a remote basis, whether that’s by video or by phone, but certainly missing out on that physical contact.
For someone like yourself who’s used to travelling the globe and delivering talks. How have you adapted to the current climate and what has been the biggest challenge?
Peter Hopwood (02:07):
Yeah I mean, if we look back and we think of when ‘something’ came up 18 months ago, all of us were kind of forced, to change the way we communicate and the way we connect. Before all of this happened for me, the way my work was looking, was actually flying a lot, going to different places, actually going to different locations, face-to-face coaching, face-to-face physical events. So I was the one moving all around the place, to visit people. Naturally, all that stopped.
Then essentially, for me personally, I found it a struggle. I found it a struggle to kind of see how I can put everything that I already do, through the screen, which was really difficult. So on the side of, if we think about events, they were still trying to navigate what they were going to do next.
Peter Hopwood (03:12):
Most of the events were cancelled, large events, even small ones as well. A lot of them were kind of adapting quickly to using what they had in front of them like Zoom, and connecting that way. But for me, as an MC, as a presenter, as the person that guides people through these large events globally, that stopped pretty abruptly.
So I found myself for, I don’t know about five, six months just kind of hoping things would get better, trying to work out if I could move more things online, more events online, naturally budgets went down for the events, being in the same room at a physical event is very different from being online. It’s a different skill set, we need to adapt, to share, so different behaviours when we’re online, we need to do that.
Peter Hopwood (04:17):
We need to be aware of that. So that’s the same as when we’re presenting and that’s the same when we’re speaking online rather than in person. So it took me quite a bit of time to, realise well, why can’t I just take the in-person skill set? The things we do in-person in terms of grabbing people’s attention, using our voice, using our gestures, storytelling, all the things that I usually use, all the techniques and tactics, and just bring that to the screen and help people do exactly the same.
Because I’ve found that, before the pandemic hit, the clients I was working with, these were, potential speakers, people that are potentially going on stage, potentially TEDx speakers, leaders, managers, who had to speak physically in front of their teams to build up their confidence. But since the pandemic, the clients I work with are literally from everywhere, from all different walks of life, all different departments, all different industries, because every single one of us now pretty much has to, as a leader let’s say, not just as a leader, but pretty much everybody, we have to communicate and create engagement through the screen.
Peter Hopwood (05:34):
We have to create this chemistry, and get people to trust us. We have to sell, we’re still selling. Our businesses haven’t stopped. Hopefully haven’t stopped. So we have to keep them going.
So this connection, and this, as I say, chemistry that we’re trying to create, that we usually do in the real world, that we usually do in person, we had to bring it to the screen. And for so many, this has been a struggle. Some of us are kind of getting good at it now. Some of us are doing it all the time. So we have kind of convinced ourselves that we’re good at it. So anything we do a lot of, naturally we think we’re good at, right? Because our confidence grows with it. That doesn’t necessarily mean we’re actually doing it in the right way, or, there isn’t anything else to learn because the skillsets for really creating the right perception, the right connection, are so important.
Peter Hopwood (06:34):
So it took me a while to kind of do it myself. But then after, five, six months or so, things started to move really in the right direction, really opening up a lot more doors. Working with so many people, so many interesting different companies, small, large, middle-sized companies as well. Helping them really, build that confidence and through their behaviours online, they can create a better perception of themselves and what they’re sharing. So, it’s kind of a roller coaster, but, yeah a good journey though, a really good journey because where it is now, it’s moving really in the right direction.
Jane O’Gorman (07:16):
That’s a really positive outcome. It’s interesting. Cause you touched on that and you talk about the skills and the different skills that, we’ve had to really dig deeper and think about. What would you say are the key skills to keep in mind when telling a story and making connections, particularly when we’re thinking about the virtual setting?
Peter Hopwood (07:38):
I mean, there are a whole bunch of areas we really need to be aware of. One of those areas, is simply this idea of emotion. So all the decisions we make. So right now listening to me and you, whoever’s listening to this, wherever they are, they’ve made a judgment, a snap judgment, and they’re probably still kind of making that judgment as we go. About you Jane, about me, not through anything else, but probably the voice, our voices, what they hear.
They’ve already made a kind of judgment before, because they’ve maybe seen something online, maybe seen something about the podcast or maybe listened to the podcast before or have seen something visual or the website, maybe been told about it. So that’s giving them an idea of curiosity, but now they’re here, they’re listening to our voices and they’re making a judgment, whether they want to stick with us. Whether they want to still listen to this, whether they feel there’s going to be value.
Peter Hopwood (08:38):
So the way we use our voice is probably one of the biggest swaying factors in terms of making the decision and creating a perception about somebody, and what they’re sharing. Right? So being aware of your voice is really important.
Another thing as well, again, emotion. When we make a decision, the first thing our brain opens up to, is emotion. That’s even before logic, even before we’ve kind of given evidence to say this is good or numbers or figures, or even social proof, right? The emotional side, the emotional door of our brain opens up first. So if we can connect some way through there, we’re on the right path to helping them make a better decision, a better perception about us and our content.
So one of those ways is through storytelling, we hear that word all the time, right?
Peter Hopwood (09:45):
In all different contexts, right? But essentially storytelling or sharing stories is about emotion. It’s about how people feel, how people feel about different things. Something that happened to them in the past. Something that happened to other people. These different emotions that we feel as adults like fear, rejection, excitement, all different types of emotions that we feel.
This as humans is what we want to know, we want to hear that. We want to hear how people are feeling, right? Think about big brother, right? Big brother. All that is essentially, is our desire as viewers, kind of nosy viewers, to find out how people are feeling in a house and all these reactions when the people shout and scream and have an argument. People watch that because we want to know how people are feeling when they’re upset or emotionally distraught.
Peter Hopwood (10:48):
This we want to know, I’m just thinking of magazines. My mother used to buy woman’s weekly. Those kind of magazines, cosmopolitan. I don’t know whether that’s still around on the shelves. It is, is it? So women’s magazines, gossip magazines, that is simply just stories about people, a celebrity who’s got married and their wedding photos. That’s just emotion.
We want to see that, many of us want to know about that. Or a celebrity who’s pregnant. Not everybody’s pregnant but so many people on this planet are pregnant, getting pregnant every single day, but because it’s a celebrity and because it’s in a celebrity magazine, it’s a story.
Peter Hopwood (11:42):
It’s just stories. So, getting people to feel the stories and sharing emotion is simply what it’s all about. So storytelling doesn’t have to be epic. It doesn’t have to be big. It doesn’t have to be once upon a time there was this and then I climbed up a mountain, you know, I won Olympic gold. None of that. It doesn’t have to be that.
And often it isn’t, it’s just simply the relatable things that happen to me and you, that others can relate to and feel the same feeling, and understand it and can put themselves in your shoes as well. This is what it is. So if we can start to do that, just by sharing those things that have happened to us or opinions and feelings, we’re already on the right track.
Jane O’Gorman (12:31):
Yeah. It’s interesting, because I guess there’s a lot of that kind of, human factor if you like, and that permission to be more open and share rather than perhaps think, ooh is that something I should share, but actually maybe be a little bit more, collaborative in the way that we communicate with others. The conversation if you like, I guess that’s what I mean in terms of having a chat or having a conversation, very often brings out a more relaxed environment, I don’t know if you agree with that.
Peter Hopwood (13:10):
Yeah, no, absolutely. Because when we connect, our brain makes these small, very small connections and when we feel like we have something in common. Even if it’s, okay so right now you’re in Berkhamsted, I’m in Split in Croatia, but I’m from Watford. So I know Hertfordshire very, very well. As you do. So there’s already a connection. Yeah.
So it’s very small things can start that connection going and getting people to feel something in the same way is also a good thing. So for example, you can say things like, if I do this right. If I asked you right now, imagine you were given two weeks off, from tomorrow and you can go anywhere in the world and you don’t have to pay for COVID jabs or anything.
Peter Hopwood (14:04):
It doesn’t cost anything. Let’s say you had this pass that you could just go, you could just show it at the airport and you go through and nobody asks you anything and you can go anywhere in the world and spend those two weeks wherever you wish. Think about that. Just think about it, feels good right? So wherever you are, right. You’re there.
So I’ve just said that to you, I don’t know where on earth you could be. I can imagine you’re probably somewhere really cool. Maybe sunshine, maybe beach, but two weeks off. You can go anywhere you like, you don’t even have to go anywhere. You can just sit on your sofa and watch Netflix for two weeks and that could be, and I’m sure for some people is a holiday, to do absolutely nothing.
Peter Hopwood (14:49):
Right. But I didn’t say to you, let me take you there. I just said to you, imagine you had two weeks off and you’re going to use those two weeks in whatever way you wish, feels good right. And I said, it feels good right? So you’re feeling good. Probably everybody listening to this. Maybe they’re thinking of what they would do if they had two weeks off. Paid as well. To do exactly as they wish, but it’s all different for everybody, I’ve just kind of helped you go to a place which is relevant for you without even giving real details of where you are.
Do you see what I mean? Just by saying, imagine, and the feeling of, imagine the feeling of. Imagine the feeling of, at work you can really feel good about what you’re doing and really hit the success that you’re looking to hit.
Peter Hopwood (15:46):
Right. So those are quite broad statements, but for everybody, maybe they’ve got their own definition of what that means. Yeah.
Jane O’Gorman (15:56):
Yeah, its very personal to each person.
Peter Hopwood (15:58):
Some, it could be simply money. It could really be, cause that’s what motivates a lot of people and that could be the definition of real success and doing well at work. For others it could be that feeling of real collaboration and really feeling part of the company that is actually making a real change and doing something for the greater good.
It could be anything, but again, just sort of giving suggestions and helping people think about that and take it on their own path. Just by giving suggestions, using words like imagine, or imagine the feeling of, or wouldn’t it be good if you could really feel blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Peter Hopwood (16:45):
So those kind of phrases really help us to hit that emotion, which is relevant for us. And if we start to do that, if we can start to do that in our exchanges, not just on the screen, but also in person as well, we can create this connection quicker.
Once we start to make these connections and people are agreeing with us and they feel like we kind of get them. It’s so much easier to get them to start a conversation and that gets people to start agreeing with you more. And then hopefully those agreements turn into, potentially business or potentially, something that you can collaborate together on.
Jane O’Gorman (17:34):
Amazing. That’s so interesting and very helpful. Are there any no no’s or anything that you should avoid, cause we’ve talked about all this, the human touch, the emotion, the feelings, but is there anything, particularly when you’re connecting and connecting virtually that you would say try and avoid that. That’s a no go.
Peter Hopwood (17:52):
Yeah. Yeah. Sure. So now on a screen, we have a box around us, right. And we’re looking at this screen. So it’s almost even more intimate. It’s actually, I think it’s more intimate than in person because our faces are closer to each other in terms of the screen. Right. We’re kind of closer to each other than we would be in person and we’re looking more at what we see and what we hear. Right. So we can see on people’s faces that facial expression. Right. So, it’s really important to really be aware of how you show up, really be aware of what you look like. So this is audio right now.
Peter Hopwood (18:40):
So we can’t see each other, we’re recording this as audio. But if we were to turn the cameras on and I said to you, Jane, okay, just think about a time where things were going really well for you. Think about a time where you really felt positive and things were moving in the right direction and it was a really good time in your life. Right. And the more I would say that I probably would see on your face, your eyes would kind of tell me that you’re thinking about something cool, about something good or something that is giving you some kind of juicy, good, exciting feeling, right?
Jane O’Gorman (19:18):
Peter Hopwood (19:18):
And your face would tell me that. If I was to then on the other side of the coin, ask you, okay. Think back to a time where things were tough or you were going through a tough time in your life. Or there was, from what people have said, or from people’s opinion of you or things were not going in the right direction and it was a struggle and you were kind of in this place, in your mind where you just needed to get out, but you weren’t quite sure how to et cetera, et cetera, right.
On your face that would come through and then if, actually to take it further, I was to ask you, tell me about that. Tell me more about how that felt. As you were telling me, as you would tell me, I would hear in your voice. I would hear it.
Peter Hopwood (20:11):
And also the other side, if it was the exciting side, right. I would hear that as well. So, how we feel, our state of mind at the time of speaking. People can feel it. Be aware of that. Just make sure you’re aware of that. But the trick is, and I know some people are thinking right now.
Okay. That’s all well and good. But when we’re not feeling great, we’re about to do a presentation or about to go on a really important high stakes zoom call. Or we’re about to have an exchange which actually, you know is high stakes, the subject is really important, but we’re not feeling good about ourselves. We’re not feeling great. We’ve had a rough night the night before, or we’re just not feeling confident about things.
Peter Hopwood (20:56):
How do you do that? Right. Well, that’s the trick. It’s about really trying to think about the value you’re going to share, thinking about, okay, I’ve really got to make a really good impression here. People are going to be looking at my eyes. They’re going to be looking, they’re going to be listening to me. Right? So it’s not a question of performing or becoming this other person, who kind of adopts these different characteristics. It’s just about shining when you need to shine. Shining when you need to shine.
When you go on a date for example, let’s say for those who are listening, who go on dates, who still go on dates or will have to go on dates maybe in the future. If they get divorced by the time this goes out. If you want to create a good impression, you shine, right?
Peter Hopwood (21:49):
You try to feel good, show you’re curious about the other person. You make yourself look good. And know that other people will be looking at you and making judgements about you. We can’t stop this. People do that. We do it all the time.
So it’s far better to say to yourself okay, go ahead and judge me, this is fine and what I’m going to do is I’m going to shine the best I can. And I really emphasise this. People have the right not to like you, people have the right to judge you and to judge you negatively, if they want to, they don’t have to work with you. You can have calls with people, you can pitch your idea to different people and companies and whoever. They all have the right not to work with you.
Peter Hopwood (22:41):
That really helped me certainly early in my career. So, starting off my company, I thought I was great, I thought I was a really cool coach. But in fact, sometimes I would win business. Often at the beginning, I wouldn’t. And the rejection would, grind away at me. The more I would get rejected, I’d be thinking about it. Why was it? Was it this, was it that, was it something else? Why don’t they want to work with me?
But at the end of the day, people have 101 different reasons, there could be 101 different reasons why they’re not going to work with you. And that that’s not necessarily because they don’t like you, it might be because of wrong timing.
Peter Hopwood (23:29):
It might be because in their tribe or in their circles, there’s somebody else they know a lot better than you and they’ve worked with them before and then that’s it. Or it could be just one person’s decision and they have somebody in mind that they’ve worked with before or a recommendation. So it could be a whole bunch of things. So letting people do that and letting people judge you openly and knowing that not everybody will like you, not everybody will go for it.
Right now, this podcast, not everybody will listen to this. Some people will have started to listen to this perhaps, they probably won’t hear this now because they’ve gone already. Right. But that’s okay. Hopefully, there’s at least one person listening to this. I don’t know. I’m sure there are.
Peter Hopwood (24:16):
So everybody has that right. So if you know that and you just say to yourself, okay well, I’m going to give value. I’m going to share something, which means something to me, I’m going to share something that I’m, not necessarily passionate about, but something that I enjoy, I like it. This is something which means something to me. When you share that it’s really appealing. It’s really powerful.
So they don’t necessarily have to agree with you or hire you or buy your services or, start business with you. Right. But it is still appealing when you share something that means something to you. Right.
And if you can think about that, that will get you in the mood and that will help you with your state of mind, to get people to start feeling more curious about you, because at the end of the day that’s what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to get people, through these exchanges, to feel more curious and want to know more and listen to you more.
Jane O’Gorman (25:19):
Indeed. Interestingly, I guess, many business leaders, well some business leaders might not necessarily be comfortable speakers. And often I’d say, even the most experienced professionals can still suffer anxiety and nerves if asked to deliver, which is another element to think about. Do you have any advice on how to overcome nerves and any personal examples from your journey Peter?
Peter Hopwood (25:49):
Yeah. Yeah. Lots in fact, although we haven’t got time to sort of share them all now, but just a couple of things. Yeah. I think the first thing, and this is relevant for absolutely everybody who’s about to speak, whether they’re a leader, whether they’re high up on the scale or very low down on the scale. Whoever they are, whatever they’re doing.
When we’re speaking and when we’re sharing our messages, it’s really important to start off in a calm way, right. To be calm. So our bodies are calm. Our voice sounds calm and we feel like we’re in control because if we hear somebody that sounds like they’re in control and looks like they’re in control, especially at the beginning of their speech, of their interview, of their TEDx talk or whatever it is, automatically as a listener, we feel this person has more credibility.
Peter Hopwood (26:51):
We feel this person is, he’s in control. He knows what he’s doing. He’s calm, he’s confident. So sharing that calmness, is often connected to how we’re thinking about ourselves and also how we’re breathing. Right? So we hear it all the time, breathing in terms of mindfulness, in terms of really helping us to be more in control of our feelings, of what we’re thinking about, of our actions. And it’s the same thing when we speak.
So the calmer we are, the more control of our breathing we have, will just really help us have clearer thoughts, and those clearer thoughts will help us share better messages. Right? So, especially when the pressure’s on breathing can really help you calm down.
Peter Hopwood (27:47):
The other one that I already mentioned is really focusing on that value. What is it you’re going to share? That’s going to make your listeners think about something differently. How are you going to help them? What value are you bringing to your audience? Whatever the audience is, a big audience, or just an interview.
What is it you want them to feel? And if you have that already in your mind, and it’s really pinpointed, it’s really clear, and it’s really sharp, then everything you kind of say is moving towards that message. A clear message of the value you’re sharing. I want to help. How are you going to help your audience to think differently about something? What do you want them to do after the speech? How do you want them to feel right?
Peter Hopwood (28:38):
You have that already in your mind. Yeah? Have that already in your mind, whatever it is, even if it’s a two minute interview on TV or, a three minute intro to a webinar that your company’s prepared or is sharing, or you as the leader, as number one in the company, sharing a message to all your employees and the staff. What do you want them to feel in that context? It might be something that is negative. It might be something that, often it’s bad news or some kind of struggle or challenge.
So really understanding how at the beginning, really understanding how your audience is feeling in conjunction with that message. Let’s say people in the company are feeling like, the rumours are going round. We’re going to have to lay off a certain number of people, or there could be layoffs in the future.
Peter Hopwood (29:34):
There could be question marks and people’s anxieties are high probably. And they want to know answers. So for you as a CEO, it’s really tough isn’t it. Really tough to share those messages, but starting off with how you, not empathize, but you understand how they feel. You understand that this a tough time. This is a time where you need answers. And it’s a time where, anxiety is probably rising and we need to be clear.
We don’t want to lose anybody. We want everybody to be continuing what they’re doing, but, you can understand how they feel. Already there you’re not softening the blow, but you are making your audience feel like you understand, exactly how they’re feeling.
Peter Hopwood (30:31):
And that will help. Now whether you do have to lay off people or not, that’s another story. But always trying to understand how they’re feeling is a good thing. And showing that and letting them know, you would share with them, you understand that nobody wants to lose their jobs. Nobody wants to lose the job at the company they’ve been working with for years. It’s really important for all of us.
And showing that you don’t want to do that. Showing that that’s not what we want to do. It may be something that we are forced to do. And if we do do that, then we’re going to do everything we can to help everybody on the right path as well. You know? So it’s sharing messages that are connecting to your audience, and they can relate to. As long as you do that, sharing the value as well. And within all of this, especially when the pressure’s on to really keep calm, then already you’re moving in the right direction.
Jane O’Gorman (31:48):
That’s all very, very helpful advice Peter and I think very useful for us to keep in mind. Particularly as you say, at this moment in time, we are seeing things move a little bit, but there’s still a lot, a lot of emphasis on the connecting and the meetings that we’re doing virtually.
So a lot of thought there for us to be thinking about in terms of how we manage those relationships going forward. So thank you so much for all the helpful advice you’ve given today. If you had one final main tip for our listeners on how to be more impactful in a virtual setting, before we finish off today, what would it be Peter?
Peter Hopwood (32:31):
One that’s kind of above all the rest. Let me think. I think I would say, your energy. Your energy means so much, right? So, the energy you have when going through these exchanges will help you stand out, will help you be remembered, will help people remember the context and the feeling that you share will be the thing that people remember the most. Right. And that could be negative.
So, think about, the energy you want to share, I’m not saying you have to come online and be the clown and jump up and down, but you do have to think about your voice, how you sound, the gestures, the screen and what people see. Your background, what people can see there, the lighting, the quality of the voice as well.
Peter Hopwood (33:29):
So remember the quality, we’re using two microphones, right? I’ve got a mic, you’ve got a call mic as well, but, laptops or PCs that you’re using with a microphone that’s directly from the PC or laptop. Often, they weren’t made to be really high quality. And if the sound is not high quality, for so many that becomes a barrier, unfortunately, that’s how it goes. Right?
Cause we just expect something better. So the better quality of your voice, will do two things. It will help the listener give you more credibility because you sound better and you sound more confident. And you as a speaker, you actually sound better. Jane, how long have you had that mic?
Jane O’Gorman (34:19):
A little while, but actually you’re right. It has definitely been driven by the fact that obviously, I’m doing much more on a virtual basis and it is important. I think that’s a really good tip.
Peter Hopwood (34:29):
When you changed from the normal, at the beginning, you didn’t have that mic, right. So the difference, I’m just imagining that perhaps when you changed, you changed as well, you felt more confident and more of a confident speaker using a better mic. Right?
Jane O’Gorman (34:52):
Yeah. I think it’s about being equipped for the environment that we’re now in. So yeah, I think you’re right, because you feel you’ve got the equipment to be able to accommodate what we want to do. So I think it does definitely make a difference, Peter.
Peter Hopwood (35:06):
Yeah. So, your energy is really important. That’s really important. And again, another thing just finishing off, this is something we’re doing all the time, right? Many of us were forced to do it. A lot of us are doing it now because it makes sense.
And, so for me, I can connect with more people, I can work with more companies. My work can be completely global now. I don’t have to fly there and I can get more done. My business is going well, and it’s not going away and a lot of businesses see that as well. Right.
So if we’re doing it, it’s such a simple notion to grasp in that we might as well do it well, if we can get better. And also if we can do it better, if this is a small little competitive advantage over our competitors, if we can create that extra connection or chemistry, that could be the difference in taking a relationship, a business relationship forward in the right direction. As opposed to not showing up well, and not thinking about your voice, not thinking about how you really connect online, and then your competitors take over.
Peter Hopwood (36:18):
So yeah, energy and really being aware of how you’re showing up.
Jane O’Gorman (36:23):
Amazing. Listen Peter, it’s been absolutely brilliant catching up this morning. Thanks so much for joining me today. And to our listeners, hope you enjoyed our talking SME, please look out for future episodes coming soon.