Talking SME Podcast: A framework to help start-up's establish a robust sales approach

Our latest guest on Ten2Two’s Talking SME podcast is James Ker-Reid, top SaaS and technology sales leader and co-author or two bestselling books. In this episode we discuss the challenges of creating a robust, enduring sales framework whilst in a fast-moving start-up.  Discussing his simple, proven framework, he covers the key elements needed for sales success.

A bit about James

James has a background in B2B SaaS and IT consultancy, with specialisms including fintech, insurance, HR and innovation tech. He has over 15 years of experience selling to startups and enterprises in the UK, Europe, Asia and North America. His major successes include a management buyout and a startup acquisition of $500 million. In 2018, James was named one of the top SaaS and technology sales leaders of the year. He has co-authored two bestselling books – Sales Genius #1 and Happy Healthy Wealthy Entrepreneurs.

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‘A framework to help start-up businesses establish a robust sales approach’ is just one in our series of podcasts where we talk about a wide range of topics. We talk with business experts, and also offer broad insights to help SMEs become more successful.

Transcript

Tracey (00:00):

Hello and welcome to Talking SME, our quickfire chat with business leaders. I'm Tracy Adams from Ten2Two, experts in flexible recruitment and consulting, and I'm very pleased today to welcome James Ker-Reid, CEO and founder of Sales for Startups, a consultancy that provides growth solutions to B2B SaaS companies. Welcome James, and thank you for joining me. We've worked together now for a couple of years, haven't we? And I know, I know your particular area of expertise lies in supporting founder-led tech companies at Seed and Series A, taking them quickly through stages to increase their revenue. Perhaps to set the scene to help everybody listening, could you give us an example of a company that you've recently worked with to show how this works and sort of what you've achieved?

James (00:53):

Yeah, sure. I think first and foremost, just a brief intro into the type of companies, and then I can give you an example. Yeah. <laugh>. So the B2B tech companies that we help are often founder led. They haven't made the full transition from a founder led approach to a team led sales and marketing approach. Yeah. And often those founders are technical in nature, so they don't come from the sales and marketing background. And they'll have revenues of normally north of 1 million, um, or at least funding of a million or more. And typically they want to sort of double, triple, or quadruple their revenue in the next 12 to 18 months. And given what we do in B2B, these companies often have sales cycles of longer than three months, and deal values of 30,000 or more per year, and often don't have a sort of senior revenue leader in place at that point in time.

James (01:48):

So that's kind of a brief intro into who we help. In terms of example, um, of this transition between founder led to a team led approach, we worked with an enterprise SaaS company that had got some initial traction, mainly led by the founder. And they had hired their first, uh, one to two people into the sales and marketing team. But really it was quite scrappy and quite inconsistent. They were seeing quite long sales cycles, they were struggling to convert those opportunities. They were struggling to forecast revenue and know exactly when those deals would be closed, and hence when they can make further investments in the product and growing the team so we worked with this company over a period of 12 months. I think some of the biggest wins to enable that transition from a founder led to team led approach was that we focused on really defining the target market and the offer and the pricing, so that everyone was confident on who we're targeting, what that compelling offer was, and obviously the pricing that would make sense to the customer.

James (02:55):

We put in very smart, intelligent, sales processes, cutting the sales process down from nine and a half months to four months, and also increasing the deal value, um, by over 150% in that time as well. So all in all, that company grew 348% revenue. Uh, wow. Within that month period. And you know, I'm pleased to say that company has actually been acquired now Oh, fantastic. As well. So there's definitely, uh, <laugh> icing on the cake as well for doing things right, even when you're setting up from scratch and building that repeatable revenue and that predictability that I think everyone wants in enterprise sales where often you've got multiple stakeholders, multiple buyers to convince. Yeah. It's complex sales.

Tracey (03:46):

So essentially what you are doing with your clients and your businesses is you are professionalizing, you are going in to professionalize their process because they're at such an early stage, you are bringing the expertise to professionalize that.

James (03:59):

Correct. Yeah. One of our founders even, uh, put it quite simply is that they had operated off a feelings-based approach to sales, and now they wanted a more professional approach to sales so <laugh>. I definitely see that a lot is that people have done really well to get to that point, typically that sort of million in revenue. And then it's like, how do we go from one to three or one to 5 million? We are going to have to do things differently, and we're not quite sure how, and even if we knew how, I'm not sure we could consistently execute on those plans, initiatives in the right way, with the right diligence, to get us to that number. Yeah. So we take a sort of conversion first approach, which is quite different from the market. You'll often hear founders talk about, you know, I need more leads, I need more leads. And we focus on basically the conversion of those initial leads into customers. Yeah. And increasing that. And that means decreasing the sales cycle, increasing the deal value as a net effect of that kind of professionalization of that sales approach. Not just the sales process, but the overall kind of way in which we do business as a company. Um, so yeah. Very different, uh, to that. We've got a framework for doing that as well.

Tracey (05:18):

So, you've got a framework, which I know we're gonna talk about. The whole purpose of our podcast is to go through your framework, which you've had great success with and you've applied it to a lot of tech startups, but how does it differ, would you say, from the traditional sales process? I guess you've, you know, you've sort of explained that briefly there about your conversion led approach, rather than the traditional SME sales process.

James (05:47):

Yeah. I think the major differences are that, we believe there is a sequence to success. Yeah. And so you can do the right things in the wrong order and obviously not get the results that you want. And I think typical revenue leaders, when they come into a business, they often focus on the sales process and the team. So either they go and hire more people ,or they'll go in, you know, with a very excruciatingly detailed sales process and focus on that. Obviously those things are important, but there is, you know, more of a logical sequence to growing these companies sustainably. So I think, because when you grow up as a kind of sales and marketing leader, you are taught very heavily around sort of process and diligence. And obviously "I need more bandwidth, I need more team members to hit my number". Yeah. So it's kind of a process and people sort of mentality to growth. And that's not always the way. Okay. You know, adding more is not always the best way to grow a company.

Tracey (07:04):

That's interesting. And, and so obviously you've worked with a lot of tech startups, but if we've got SMEs who are more established listening to the podcast, is this a framework that they can apply in their business?

James (07:18):

Certainly, I've been asked this question before, and there are about three typical scenarios where a more established SME would find this valuable. The first is when they're entering the market with a new product. So we've got a new product launch. And in a sense that's kind of a mini micro business in its own right. Especially if it's one of the kind of new flagship products that they are obviously looking to market. The second one is where they're entering new geographies or new territories. Yeah. Um, and thirdly as well, often when acquiring new businesses, um, that's often another one when you're trying to assimilate that product or that service into your business, then this revenue growth framework is very, very helpful for that as well.

Tracey (08:07):

Fabulous. Great. So you're engaged by a business clearly at a stage where they, they recognize they need external support, um, they need that intervention to reach the next level for whatever reason. It could be funding reasons. Um, they're serious about it, you know, serious enough to put money into this process. Um, you've got your framework, but what do you need from clients to make it a success? Because it's a two-way street.

James (08:36):

It is, yeah. And I think for us, the qualification of the founder or the co-founders and their mindset is very important. Even in our own sales process before sort of contractually committing to clients. I think when you look at the most successful clients, there are some commonalities there. The first is that they have frequent communication with us, and that's often these days, you know, on Slack, and then we have sort of weekly standup as well to sense check where we are with the project and obviously some of the initiatives. Because I think with a lot of changes that are often made in order to get the revenue growth, um, sometimes those changes are overlooked and the importance of those changes is sometimes not valued initially because obviously you are changing things and they take a time to bear fruit. It's like you are sort of planting seeds ready for the harvest, you know, it doesn't sort of hatch overnight.

James (09:36):

And for some they kind of, you know, overlook that process. So that's quite important. But the second one is, you know, volunteering the information as well quite freely, we're often sitting in the boardroom of, you know, this company and hence knowing what else is going on. Whether that's, you know, potential acquisitions, funding new hires, maybe exiting, you know, potential hires. Even things like re-platforming the product as well is you know, a very interesting thing for us to know commercially because that might affect, you know, current deals, product roadmap, other elements that are important. So I think volunteering information is the second. Yeah. And then thirdly, I would say it's just that if you want to sort of double, triple, quadruple the revenue of a company in 12 to 18 months, this is not gonna be an overnight success. Yeah.

James (10:32):

It's not like, you know, we're gonna put an ad budget on Google ads and in sort two to three weeks we're gonna know the return, you know, on that investment. So we have to have a long term mindset. I mean, for SMEs, this will probably be a short term mindset, 12 months, It's quite short term for a established SME. But for a startup, you know, that's a good timeframe to think, okay, can we do this? How do we do this? Let's see it as a bigger picture. And, and therefore the bigger ROI that comes from that diligence, you know, commercially.

Tracey (11:07):

Okay, great. So it's a lot of collaboration really embedding you in the team to take that forward. So we'll cover the stages in more detail shortly. So we'll jump onto that in a minute to go through the stages and practically how that works. But just a really quick question, because you know, from a company's point of view, if they've already started to invest in certain systems and software and they engage you to come and help them, um, you know, do they have to change again? How do you work with their own sort of their, like, let's say legacy, they haven't been around for very long, but their own internal systems and software. How does this framework, how do you apply it to assist? Every, every company's different.

James (11:47):

Yeah, I think first and foremost, you know, we evaluate what's working, what's not working as well. Some of those things are not necessarily visible to the founders at that point in time, so that's quite important. Yeah. And then, you know, from there as well, we're looking to work with normally, especially the core tools they've got already, for example, CRM is a really good example is that a lot of our startups will have HubSpot and they're not using HubSpot to its full use of functionality and hence we're not gonna kind of re-platform that CRM at that point in time, but how do we kind of squeeze more juice out the lemon in some ways and get more value from it? So that's often things that we will do. The same with, you know, the website and other elements as well that we wouldn't necessarily like replatform the website or rebuild the website.

James (12:45):

Um, there'd be other, you know, elements, marginal improvements we've made. But for core systems, we wouldn't wanna make complete landscape changes. No. Although sometimes, you know, we have customers that don't have some of these tools as well set up, so it's kind of a question of like, right, we've got a blank slate and we can kind of set things up, which is also quite good. And some people have the tools but have never logged into the tools as well, <laugh>. So that's part of it as well. So it's great. Oh yeah, we've got that. And then you look at if they're using it and they've added sort of one deal in the last 12 months, you're like, okay, so they're not using this, but they have the logins for, so yeah, it's, uh, same with other sort of tools, whether it's like prospecting tools or, you know, website tools. A lot of these things, people don't really know what they're using or not using when it comes to like software and tools. Um, and obviously we do add a couple of tools normally into the mix that are inexpensive, but really kind of grease the wheels of the commercial function.

Tracey (13:50):

So it's a real audit of each client you know, and that's where you come back to, like you say, sharing of information and working collaboratively. So understanding, um, exactly what's in the business, how they're using it and sharing all of that information.

James (14:06):

Yeah.

Tracey (14:06):

Just briefly, so, okay, you've mentioned the framework. You've mentioned that there's five stages. Now I know with this is a short-ish podcast, so we are really gonna only have time to cover probably the first three stages in the detail and we can summarize the last two. Um, so shall we crack on and go into that first stage, the sort of first thing you do when you go into a business?

James (14:30):

Yeah, certainly. So just to remind people, it's called the teams revenue growth framework that we created. And this is based off, you know, 41 implementations of B2B Tech companies and having an advised personally 87 unique founders as well over the last seven years. So we've got a little bit of evidence just to see whether this works or not. Um, so it's based on systems thinking. The first step, the T of the teams stands for target and target market. So that's the first step. Um, often neglected by a lot, overlooked, and sort of almost got this sort of apathy around, you know, really focusing on the target market and getting that right. The second one is, um, embedding the right process. That's the E of teams. And that's often where a lot of people kind of skip the target market goes straight towards the process and try and drive efficiencies there.

James (15:29):

The third one, the A, stands for assemble the team. This is where a lot of founders jump to first, you know, and they'll probably maybe even come to Ten2Two in this instance. Yeah. <laugh>, they'll say, right, I need this person. Yeah. You know, I've had enough of this, or I'm overworked, I've got no bandwidth, it's not my skill area. And there's sort of a knee jerk reaction. We will go and hire often the wrong person or the right person at the wrong time. So that's a common mistake there. Yeah. Um, and then quickly on the, the fourth and the fifth. Yeah.

Tracey (16:03):

Yep. It's fine.

James (16:05):

The M stands for maximize with tools and technology. Yeah. Um, so increasing the output of the people you've got with clever tools. And then the fifth, the S, stands for sustained sales momentum. Yeah. Which is really around, you know, smart reporting and carrying momentum from quarter to quarter rather than setting these big annual plans and then forgetting about them.

Tracey (16:30):

Perfect. So that's the cycle. Um, looking at number one target, so the "T" in your team's framework, you've described briefly but just describe briefly again what it is, and then maybe take me through some of the small actions, what it actually means. You know, some of the small actions those businesses can take within that process or that stage rather.

James (16:54):

Yeah. So the target market part, um, the key sub-components of that are your niche, your USP and your offer and pricing. And that, especially the offer, that's often overlooked as well by a lot of people as to how do we create a real compelling offer? Yeah. And how do we make that obviously unique within the market. You know, you see a lot of people and their websites and their comms and they're quite bland in terms of uniqueness. There's no real big claims that are made, for example, in their website or their communications. They're not really trying to stand above the rest. You know, whether it's like cybersecurity for example. There are lots of cybersecurity software companies and services companies and it's like, well how do you stand above the rest as well? Because a lot of people are doing similar things to you, but what makes your company, your approach different as well? So that's the first one. Target market. The second one.

Tracey (18:01):

Yeah. Go, go on. That's it. I was gonna say, go on. Number two, embedding perfect. <laugh>, how does that work?

James (18:07):

Yeah, so, the second one, embedding the right processes. Um, the key processes we recommend, especially the early stage, the sales process, the lead process, the nurture process, which is both, uh, lead nurture as well as um, existing customers. And then the fourth process is cash collection. And that's really overlooked by a lot of people in SMEs as well, is that, for example, a customer that we signed recently, we found that they were missing 90,000 pounds of cash per month from their bank account. Wow. Now that really makes a difference. You know, when you think about it, that's close to 1.1 million per year in late payments and missing cash flow. So, you know, what would you do with another 1.1 million pounds in your business? And these are some of the sort of finer details that I think a lot of people miss. The third one, to go onto, that is assembling the team.

Tracey (19:12):

Can I just jump back to embed quickly, James? Is that alright? I've got a quick question on embed, actually. Um, I'm going off piece a little bit here. So with your embedding and your processes, um, are these all sort of automated processes that you are using, you know, CRM systems HubSpot for? Or do you sort of helicopter in, you know, people to, to do sort of lead gen outbound calling? You know, is it a mix of stuff? What sort of thing do does it look like really?

James (19:38):

Yeah, so there's a blend of obviously getting the right process and then, you know, assembling the team. And that is the sequence there, is that I think a lot of people will assemble the team and expect them to create the process. Right. And we, do it the other way round. Okay. And we create the process and then bring in the team members Right. Do those, whether it's, you know, outbound campaigns, whether it's inbound campaigns on obviously on the lead process and the lead generation. So yeah, I think it's really important to get the process down before adding the talent. Okay. Yeah. Um, whether that's a combination of, you know, full-time, part-time as you know Mm-Hmm. Um, or you know what, within sort of fracture or freelance for very tactical things Yeah. You know, can help as well.

Tracey (20:31):

Okay. And with the embed part of the process, the framework, um, is there an expectation from founders, an unrealistic expectation on timescales? You know, so you're putting these sort of lead nurture processes in place. Do you have lots of conversations around how quickly it needs to happen or wants to happen? And you mentioned earlier that SMEs is slightly different to tech startups and there are time differences in those sorts of businesses. I just wondered if that was something that cropped up frequently.

James (21:05):

Certainly. I would say our founders are impatient by nature and they definitely want results quite quickly. But when you look at sort of under the hood of what's going on on the field is that you'll see sort of close dates that either are out of date, are either, you know, a month earlier than today and you think, well, you know, what's the deal there? And then other times they'll just put some sort of random date in that has no sort of real logic. Um, and then you'll see that often in the forecast for sort of the first, you know, quarter you look at it and think, okay, well you, you've put it in February or March and then you think, well, uh, I'm not quite sure that that's actually gonna close them. We haven't even like created the business case, we haven't been referred to procurement, we haven't gone through supplier onboarding.

James (22:04):

We, we haven't done any of these key actions Yeah. That would help us get an enterprise deal over the line. So yeah, I think there's definitely an impatience and um, you know, I think for, especially at what I've seen with sort of services companies, more than software, companies is, I think that they think that like sales is a numbers game. I've heard that phrase a lot from like agency and consultancy owners. And that's really like a real misinterpretation of what sales is. Really, a sales person or a sales function, what they're really good at is having a couple of deals and often converting those deals into customers. That's really what a very good sales function is, it's often, you know, that's where the function has changed into having these kind of closers, you know, they call it in the states, and you know, people are normally very good at closing deals and then it's like, when's the next gonna deal gonna come in? And I think that's really where like agencies and consultancies really misinterpret. Like they think more, more at the top of the funnel will mean more at the bottom of the funnel.Really that's kind of false logic. It's like saying if I have a leaky bucket and I have 10 holes in it, if I just sort of add more water into it, it'll be fine. Yeah.

Tracey (23:28):

<laugh>. Yeah. Okay. No, that's helpful and interesting. So we'll move on to stage three now. Assembling the team. And now this is the part you've mentioned already. I find this really interesting cause this is often the stage that we get involved with businesses, with all stages. But, what advice and tips, so talk me through this bit and advice and tips as well for businesses looking at hiring into this stage of the business.

James (23:54):

Yeah, so I think assembling the team, the first major problem is the definition of the problem. So often when we're looking to hire someone, we are looking to solve a problem, whether that's even on the upside in terms of like growth or that's kind of, you know, solving an actual burning issue right now. So we've got to clearly define that problem before we go out to market because that will affect our expectations, you know, the targets that will affect obviously the level of person, uh, the time in which we, uh, predict that they will be successful or generate that return to our business. So I think that's really important is definition of the problem first. And then the second thing is the structure. So you're looking at how this person actually, you know, integrates into our organization in terms of the operational flow of the business.

James (24:56):

And especially when you've got a founder led sales environment, that is quite important because you've now got to look at the founder's role and involvement in the sales and marketing process and where they're best deployed as we go through this transition. It's not like an overnight thing where, you know, one day they're playing on the field and the next they're in the boardroom. It's not quite as quick as that. Um, but we're going through that sort of evolution and gradual process of development, uh, to reduce their involvement in the commercial process of the business. So yeah. And then finally the compensation is the other one is that, yeah, we've got to, obviously it's linked to the expectations and the goals. We've gotta understand what we are expecting the person to accomplish. Yeah. And what are those, what's that scorecard in effect that you are gonna measure the success of that person against?

James (25:54):

And you've got to obviously be transparent with that candidate as the, here are the three to five kind of major targets and here is like our initial V1 on sort of some of the sub goals within those major, you know, objectives that we have. Um, because I think a lot of candidates will come in and, you know, its often they will lead on their skills and their experience before, which is great, but that might not be, you know, what you are wanting to accomplish, as in they could take you in a different direction to what you originally planned. And the only way you are really going to sort of mitigate that risk is obviously doing the thinking upfront. Yeah. And when you're informing people like Ten2Two, then it's clear as to you know, what problem you're solving, what sort of compensation, what sort of timelines you're looking to hire that person, you know, how long you are thinking that it will take them to be successful, therefore how long the probation period will be, you know, what the bonuses or the, you know, review period will be like.

James (27:03):

So, so you can really articulate that quite clearly to people like you. And it enables you then to make smarter decisions as to, you know, whether for example, flexible and sort of part-time talent, you know, maybe a really good fit for your business as you are going through that evolution. Yeah,

Tracey (27:22):

Absolutely.

James (27:23):

I definitely found that is that you can hire more competent and senior people without completely burning a hole in your sort of cash flow and budget. Which is great because, you know, I think especially in this environment, 2024, I think a lot of people are looking for that flexibility. They're looking for their ownership, but maybe with a flexible work schedule where they don't work five days a week or even four days a week, they're looking for two, three days a week as a optimum and they can balance that around all their family priorities and you know, other interests as well.

Tracey (28:00):

Lovely plug for Ten2Two there thank you! <Laugh>. So with with tech startups, I know, you know, it's a completely, it's not a completely different kind of world, but it is a different kind of world to really established businesses. So, and we, this is why we've talked for the past couple of years. 'cause we've talked about the kinds of people that are suitable for these businesses. Is there a particular attribute that, you know, you look for a particular attribute in someone that you think, yeah, they'll get it, they'll really fit.

James (28:32):

I think adaptability is very important. Um, and people talk about flexibility. I think it's being adaptable is probably a better world for me to linchpin because I think in startups things change quite quickly. Um, you know, it's also about this kind of exponential returns mentality. You look at things and you have very, sometimes little resources, but you are looking to maximize those by four, five X and that could be also by sort of, you know, trading services, trading time, trading software, um, you know, striking out strategic partnerships where other people might just, you know, pay the sponsorship fee as an example. Mm-Hmm. So I think, yeah, adaptability and then there's always got to be this kind of, you know, growth mindset and this, you know, unbelievable drive to become better. I think that startups are sort of, although they're seen as these massive unicorns, these things that grow very quickly, actually what happens is that, you know, marginal gains are created in multiple areas that add up to a massive compound growth effect.

James (29:54):

So you want people in your team that are gonna be better than you in functions. They're going to take ownership of, you know, the task or, or the objective. Yeah. And they're really gonna want to drive through, you know, returns for that business. So I think yeah, yeah. They've gotta have those two things adaptability and that growth mindset with a driven mentality to always get better, you know, and you can understand that from people of what they do in work, but also what they do outside of work as well. Yeah. So some of their habits and some of their things you can tell, you know, people that are really relentless in their own sort of personal greatness.

Tracey (30:37):

I think that really resonates. Uh, um, you know, we are absolutely on the same page there having done, you know, a few of those sorts of placements. Um, and it's growing that, that area, particularly tech startups, um, is growing. Um, so we've done a whistle stop tour of the first part of the framework, the first three stages. Um, we've only, we, we are not gonna cover them all in detail, but perhaps just very briefly, you could remind us what the last two are, uh, to finish off. And at the end of this we'll transcribe this for the listeners so that there's more information and they can follow up and have a look at it again in more detail. But if you could just summarize those last two, that'd be great.

James (31:19):

Yeah, certainly. So the force that the M stands for maximizing the output with tools and technology. So for there you are looking at intelligent sales and marketing stack. You're looking at smart kind of lead tools that enable you to prospect, enable you to generate leads effectively. And finally you are looking for smart adoption of these tools. It's great, you know, buying these tools or even having these tools, but are you using them? Are you using them regularly? Which is really important 'cause you've got the team at this point. Now you are just sort of saying, how can I make your life easier and how can I make you more productive as an employee of the company? And then the, the fifth one, the s of teams stands for sustain, you know, sales momentum. And that's really about having clear, you know, reporting, having good feedback loops and team communication.

James (32:13):

Because often a company's success is really based on how easily and effectively is it to take the feedback from the market and obviously internalize that knowledge and develop the product or the service at that point in time. So we want those feedback loops to be regular and consistent in order to do that. The final part is having kind of quarterly planning and carrying through those big audacious goals you have maybe for the year. Um, but then looking at where you are at per quarter with those goals and making those marginal gains. For example, one of the areas that we focus on is the, you know, conversion rate or from kind of lead to sale rate. And you know, we've, you know, normally increased that rate by about 50% on working with a company. Yeah. So, but that's not done overnight as well. So for example, say your lead to close rate might be 6% and to jump to, you know, 12% from kind of lead to close, see that's a hundred percent increase.

James (33:25):

Yeah. But per quarter you might be gaining, you know, two, 2% maybe per quarter, um, you know, to gain up to that level. Um, obviously less than one or two of the months to equate to the 12. But yeah, I think it's, it's a game that is predicated on smart planning and I think a lot of people, they do sort of hail mary tactics where they think of like, I'm gonna achieve everything in a quarter. And you see that with lead gen agencies that, you know, SMEs sort of bring in these lead gen agencies and they come and go after 90 days and they go for another tactic, try another strategy, and it's kind of the merry-go-round and they don't really make any gains. And when they look at the budget for the year and think, gosh, you know, we wasted a lot of money on these different consultancies, and consultancies don't work for us. And you think, well maybe your definition of the problem was also, and therefore your selection of the supplier was also therefore the problem. So yeah, I think that teams revenue growth framework can help, you know, early startups, like we do with tech startups. Yeah. But also established SMEs as well.

Tracey (34:40):

Perfect. James, that's absolutely brilliant. Thanks for whizzing through all of that. Um, there's lots of detail, there's loads more If, um, if anybody wants to talk to you, we can share your details. Um, really interesting. So thanks for joining us. Really valuable chat to everybody listening. Um, I hope you en enjoyed our talking smi um, look out for more. And uh, just once more. Thank you James for your time. Really appreciate it.

James (35:06):

My pleasure. Thanks for having me on.